Curse

Gmr Leon · Jul 24, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

As I stated in my previous thread, Observations from the Tarnished Coast, I have developed several theories from that research. One of which, as shown by my title, relates to the Riders.

Unnatural Creatures, Unnatural Creations, or What?

While nothing is said of the Riders in the Manuscripts, there are at least three quests that relate to these creatures, but even they unveil little of their mysterious nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erudine

Have you also been studying the local flora and fauna? I find the storm riders to be quite fascinating. It seems they exhibit powers and abilities not dissimilar to those a Mesmer might use. I have studied a few of the smaller species, and I believe their tissue might be put to some beneficial purpose.

As this suggests, they are an entirely new species to Ascalon, and, as anyone who has played a Mesmer would know, they are renowned for illusions, interruptions, hexes, and energy, or rather, magic, manipulation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telius

Ages ago, a power-mad mage named Sybitha unleashed the monstrous storm riders upon this land. One of her first and most powerful roams the Salt Flats to this very day, an ancient and corrupt creature the Centaurs call Yxthoshth.

Interestingly, however, this indicates that they are a far older species, which is also supported by the Ancient Eyes dropped by the Wind Riders in the Maguuma Jungle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trader Versai

Good day to you. Perhaps you could help me with a little situation. I recently hired a young man by the name of Grahm from Loamhurst to accompany me on my travels. Not the sharpest arrow in the quiver, but he has a strong enough back. I sent him to the Sage Lands looking for a beast called Gale Stormsend. If legend be anything to base fact upon, it carries within itself a rare and preceious jewel known as the Lilac Eye.

This little quest begs the question of how exactly Gale Stormsend got its..Tentacles, I suppose, on the Lilac Eye, but nevertheless, it may suggest something of the Riders' nature.

Where are the Riders Found?
All over Tyria. Nearly everywhere you go, you'll eventually run into these creatures. In the Maguuma Jungle, the Tarnished Coast, recently in the ruins of Ascalon, and the Crystal Desert. The only place you won't find them is in Cantha and Elona, which gives a bit of support to Sybitha either having created them or unleashed them from some other plane.

So, here's where I'll unload my screenshots, by area, as per usual.

Ascalon.
Pockmark Flats:
Clusterbomb Picture.
Another.
And yet another.

Diessa Lowlands:
Diessa Lowlands picture.

Regent Valley:
Regent Valley picture.

Crystal Desert.
Salt Flats:
Salt Flats picture.

Skyward Reach:
Skyward Reach picture.

Prophet's Path:
Prophet's Path picture.

Tarnished Coast.
Magus Stones:
Magus Stones picture.

I excluded, again, the Wind Riders around Ventari's Sanctum due to the same reasoning from my Observations thread, well, that and I simply forgot. I also excluded shots from the Maguuma Jungle because there are so many of them in certain areas, I felt it partially unnecessary, and partly feared doing another clusterbomb picture.

What do all of these areas have in common?
Magic. Lots, and lots of magic. As shown in my Diessa Lowlands picture, the lightning doesn't seem to be due to a storm, but rather due to unstable magical energies within the crystal itself. This suggests that the crystals, since they are in large quantities in certain areas of Ascalon, (Pockmark Flats in particular) saturated the area with magic.

The Tarnished Coast, after the Cataclysm, was swept with a wave of magical energy, which is part of what attracted the Asura to the area as they fled from their tunnels. Note, this is eight years after the Cataclysm. Magic, I suppose, is akin to radiation in that it doesn't go away quickly, which I'm thinking will be the case with Ascalon as well.

The Maguuma Jungle. This area, while not brimming in magic, does contain a Bloodstone, which likely does leak a bit of magic into the region. Not only that, but with some of the structures taken to be of Druidic origin there, they appear almost to retain magical energy in some way. That is, the glowing bit of blue within certain green, plant structures.

The Crystal Desert. This place just has to be saturated with magic. It's been the playground of Gods and power-mad mages for some years. Abaddon appears to have cast his first strike here. Sometime later, the Sorcerer Lord Kree came here, and ruled over Prophet's Path with an army of beasts, of which the minotaurs were some. What was his fate? Unknown. Perhaps around the same time, perhaps after or prior, it is simply unknown, Sybitha came to the Salt Flats as noted above.

Where do the Riders come from? Where do they come into play?

It is suggested by Telius that they are:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telius

That is why we have to abhor all that is unnatural and corrupt.

Well, latter two. So, if they aren't natural, they must be created, right? Well, I don't think so. Telius clearly states Sybitha unleashed them, which suggests to me that possibly they were creatures somehow brought forth from the Mists. Of course, it's entirely possible that they were created, but I'll elaborate on my thoughts as to why they were summoned later.

What is also interesting is that, in the very same area that Sybitha may have unleashed the Storm Riders, which is suggested by their largest concentration being found there, there appears to have another unnatural event that occurred. This is noted by Tirzah:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tirzah

Forgive me if I seem startled, but it has been ages since a living being has spoken to me... Please, don't think less of me, but I have a rather selfish request of you. When the...event...that destroyed my people occurred, I was supposed to meet my betrothed Chebar out in the Salt Flats near one of those curious teleportation pads. We thought it was a perfect place to be alone. It has been my single lasting torment that I never found out what happened to Chebar. Although it is unlikely that any sign of his...remains...would have survived to this day, I would like to be certain.

While it has been suggested here that it was caused by the "Weapon X" found in the Arid Sea, we now know what that was to be used for, and that it probably isn't what caused the "event." So, what if, perhaps, the event that destroyed Tirzah's people, was Sybitha's experiment gone awry? We know not her fate, so perhaps she died in the process, and killed off the other "Seekers." If those were Tirzah's people, that is.

But I have yet to answer the question, where do they come into play? Well, each area they've been found in has had some disaster occur, or, if not that, a saturation of magic. What if, these creatures, these supposedly unnatural, corrupt creatures, according to Telius, are, in fact, very natural, and very helpful? Each area I have noted in Ascalon, there are crystals, in two of the areas I note in the Crystal Desert, there are stones with an unusual appearance about them, rather large ones in Skyward Reach, in fact, and in the Prophet's Path picture, what appear to be remnants of similar rocks.

Perhaps, perhaps, these creatures are in fact restorers of balance or order in an environment. Magical sponges, of sorts, that may even live off of the magical energy, or perhaps, convert it in some manner. But..What suggests this? What implies this? Well, aside from their attraction to the crystals in Ascalon, one might say nothing.

However, I have suspected for some time, that the unnatural stones that are found in Skyward Reach are actually remnants of Abaddon's assault on the Forgotten armada. The unnatural stones, of course, being the "stars" noted in the Scriptures of Abaddon:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scriptures of Abaddon

An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

However, it should be noted, that the stones in Skyward Reach, and the smaller stones in Prophet's Path, are not the only stones of their kind to be found. They can also be found elsewhere in the Crystal Desert, perhaps supporting this idea.

If this is the case, these stones might be much like the Searing crystals, containing a large amount of magic, which would be why the Storm Kin are attracted to them. And perhaps the reason the crystalline part is no longer found on them is due to the Storm Kin sapping the magic from them, which may be what formed them, and held them together in the first place. As they sapped them, it eroded them, much like what occurs to any rocks over time, turning them into the sand that covers the Crystal Desert. This would help explain why when a grain of sand from the Crystal Desert is examined, it appears crystalline in nature.

The argument against this, of course, would be why are they not found in abundance across the Crystal Desert, then? Well, we don't see many of those stones now do we? And also, it may be that they haven't any need. There are odd anomalies of lightning and smoking ground in the Salt Flats, perhaps a side-effect of Sybitha's experimentation gone awry, and unstable magical energies in the area. If I am correct, the Riders absolutely love magical hot spots, which is highly suggested by their sudden presence in Ascalon after the Searing, thus, if the Salt Flats are a hot spot, it may be some years before the Storm Kin ever even find a need to move outward. It may even be that they are starting to now, as indicated by their slight presence outside of the entrance to the Salt Flats from Prophet's Path, and in Skyward Reach.

As to why they are attracted to magical energy, well, say they are natural inhabitants of a world unprotected from the Mists, or perhaps they are natural inhabitants of the Mists. If Magic is merely a manipulation of the Mists, then the Mists as a whole would simply be untapped magical energy waiting to be manipulated, that, if the Riders are originally from there, they could easily absorb, and possibly use as a form of sustenance. Although, I do not believe the Smoke Walkers are support for this, given the profession difference.

But what really, really, supports this? We've never seen them convert magical energy into anything in the Maguuma Jungle or Ascalon!

True, in the case of Ascalon, but we also haven't seen them in the six years since the events of Prophecies in those areas. As to the Maguuma, well, we don't know how far the effects of the Bloodstones go, but if they somehow sapped magic from it, and converted it, perhaps they just spread its effect into the water, in the form of Fount of Maguuma. Although this is still unclear.

So, where it really shines, is in the Tarnished Coast. While it cannot be seen in my screenshot, there are, as I noted in my previous thread, single Wind Riders continually circling the stones in Magus Stones. What are they doing? Why are they doing this? Well, by my theory, they are converting the abundant magical energy to make the stones float. Why? Well, I can't honestly say to get rid of the magical energy, as they're just making it do something different, but perhaps they are doing it to erode the rocks more quickly, to create wide open plains for them to float over more easily? As to how making them float makes them erode more quickly, well, there's not as much protecting them from the wind and just the elements in general.

By this idea, they are part of the explanation for the floating stones found in Magus Stones and Riven Earth, at least perhaps.

In summary:
The Riders are natural creatures, that feed off of magic, and when it is in excess, convert it in some manner, perhaps subtle, perhaps excessively obvious, but always in some manner utilize it.

Roy_ · Jul 24, 2009, 03:30 PM // 15:30

This is, infact, very interesting... However when it comes to magic, the gods split it to where you could never control more than one... if the Riders came from the mists would they be bound by this law as well? If so they are of the Denial magic class, which could then help your theory that they are "denying" the magical energy to be found of anything else, which makes me wonder why they wouldn't want anyone else to use it...
If however, they are not bound by the gods law, why do they chose Denial and not Preservation, Aggression, or Destruction (with the acception of bosses)?

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 24, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Very interesting post Leon.
I was thinking a little about it and I have a question:
Is it possible that Sybitha found the Riders in the areas east of Ascalon and the Crystal Desert? She found them, brought them to Desert and corrupted them. After that she released them on the Tyria. And if they lived in those areas, they could easily get to that extra large crystal in the Pockmark Flats.
And the magic-sapping theory seems right and after this post's explanation it would explain a lot.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 24, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Where are the Riders Found?

You forgot Verdant Cascades, by the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

The Tarnished Coast, after the Cataclysm, was swept with a wave of magical energy, which is part of what attracted the Asura to the area as they fled from their tunnels.

Is this stated anywhere? I only recall this as a theory. Be careful with your wording as you make it sound like fact if it is indeed just a theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

The Maguuma Jungle. This area, while not brimming in magic, does contain a Bloodstone, which likely does leak a bit of magic into the region. Not only that, but with some of the structures taken to be of Druidic origin there, they appear almost to retain magical energy in some way. That is, the glowing bit of blue within certain green, plant structures.

It should also be noted that most, if not all, riders reside on or along waterbeds. And we all know what property the water in the Maguuma holds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

The Crystal Desert. This place just has to be saturated with magic. It's been the playground of Gods and power-mad mages for some years. Abaddon appears to have cast his first strike here. Sometime later, the Sorcerer Lord Kree came here, and ruled over Prophet's Path with an army of beasts, of which the minotaurs were some. What was his fate? Unknown. Perhaps around the same time, perhaps after or prior, it is simply unknown, Sybitha came to the Salt Flats as noted above.

You forgot the presence of Augury Rock and Glint. I'd say those two are the biggest influences past Sybitha, as they are very resent and at least in the case of Augury Rock, most likely very powerful magic concentration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Perhaps, perhaps, these creatures are in fact restorers of balance or order in an environment. Magical sponges, of sorts, that may even live off of the magical energy, or perhaps, convert it in some manner.

Very interesting, this being the key point I presume in your post.

A thought: What if Sybitha's experiments were not to "unleash" the storm riders, but the experiments attracted the storm riders?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

If this is the case, these stones might be much like the Searing crystals, containing a large amount of magic, which would be why the Storm Kin are attracted to them. And perhaps the reason the crystalline part is no longer found on them is due to the Storm Kin sapping the magic from them, which may be what formed them, and held them together in the first place. As they sapped them, it eroded them, much like what occurs to any rocks over time, turning them into the sand that covers the Crystal Desert. This would help explain why when a grain of sand from the Crystal Desert is examined, it appears crystalline in nature.

I'll have to look at the stones in game, but this theory could be very helpful in supporting the theory that the Scriptures of Abaddon describe a previous "Searing" occuring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Although, I do not believe the Smoke Walkers are support for this, given the profession difference.

Actually, it could be support for this. These are the only of their "kind" that doesn't have the name "Rider" in it - instead it is Walker. What if it is a sub-species of the Rider species, which also causes the profession difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

The Riders are natural creatures, that feed off of magic, and when it is in excess, convert it in some manner, perhaps subtle, perhaps excessively obvious, but always in some manner utilize it.

Wouldn't the magic, if it is sustenance, simply be used as food and thus be converted into energy which would mean it is converted into the Riders' spells and movements? Thus, it would be the opposite of what you said for the Tarnished Coast and the Maguuma - they are not making the rocks float and the waters heal, but stealing the magic which allows this. In other words, after some time, if this theory is correct, there will no longer be floating boulders unless the Riders are all killed. I don't think the Maguuma will change much, as even if Riders continue to feed off the magic, it's coming from a bloodstone and thus is seemingly unlimited (as it just filters magic from the Mists) which means that if those Riders are all killed, then there would be more magic flowing from the bloodstone to the world.

Gmr Leon · Jul 25, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

You forgot Verdant Cascades, by the way.

Didn't forget, so much as excluded in much the same way as I did with the ones in the Maguuma, but yeah, I probably should have mentioned it in my initial post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Is this stated anywhere? I only recall this as a theory. Be careful with your wording as you make it sound like fact if it is indeed just a theory.

This was stated somewhere, prior to Eye of the North's release. I recall that whenever it was stated the fellow who was talking mistakenly said Orr, which really had us excited until we were told it was a mistake. I'll dig up the thread in the Northern Tyria section, as I remember discussing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

You forgot the presence of Augury Rock and Glint. I'd say those two are the biggest influences past Sybitha, as they are very recent and at least in the case of Augury Rock, most likely very powerful magic concentration.

Augury Rock, yes, I did forget, a tad ironically. However, in the case of Glint, she's in a pocket dimension that's in a grain of sand for some bizarre reason. I suspect that her magical energies may be masked, to prevent intrusion. That Primordus managed to get in somehow is indicative of his power. But yeah, you more or less said that yourself about Glint, in other terms.

Also a note, I've always thought Augury Rock might be the largest stone leftover from Abaddon's assault. It just always struck me as being a giant meteorite or something..Issue I've had is the chamber within.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Very interesting, this being the key point I presume in your post.

A thought: What if Sybitha's experiments were not to "unleash" the storm riders, but the experiments attracted the storm riders?

Yes, that more or less is my central point here. The converting was my initial thought, but later transformed into the magical energy as sustenance/general absorption.

As to Sybitha's experiments attracting them, it's a possibility, but it still begs the question of where they may have initially come from. Plus, one of the quotes, "One of her first and most powerful.." implies to me their being intentionally summoned or created by Sybitha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I'll have to look at the stones in game, but this theory could be very helpful in supporting the theory that the Scriptures of Abaddon describe a previous "Searing" occuring.

As a note, these are the stones I was rambling about awhile back to you, as I was looking around the Crystal Desert. Which can also be located in Vulture Drifts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Actually, it could be support for this. These are the only of their "kind" that doesn't have the name "Rider" in it - instead it is Walker. What if it is a sub-species of the Rider species, which also causes the profession difference.

It's possible. However, there are others of their kind that don't have Rider in the name, such as Breeze Keeper and Storm Kin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Wouldn't the magic, if it is sustenance, simply be used as food and thus be converted into energy which would mean it is converted into the Riders' spells and movements? Thus, it would be the opposite of what you said for the Tarnished Coast and the Maguuma - they are not making the rocks float and the waters heal, but stealing the magic which allows this. In other words, after some time, if this theory is correct, there will no longer be floating boulders unless the Riders are all killed. I don't think the Maguuma will change much, as even if Riders continue to feed off the magic, it's coming from a bloodstone and thus is seemingly unlimited (as it just filters magic from the Mists) which means that if those Riders are all killed, then there would be more magic flowing from the bloodstone to the world.

Possibly, but then how does one explain the stones in the Crystal Desert? Depending on the amount there were originally, could they have eroded in a thousand years by normal means? Or, it may be that the sand has just slowly buried many of them, but then, the sand appears to be made of the crystals. It's a bit of a conundrum in that area. But, yes, the reverse most likely would be the case. Although, it begs the question of why they still circle those stones, unless the stones themselves are simply that saturated with magic. It may be like a magnet when you put the same poles next to each, they push apart, and if they aren't circling those stones, they remove the opposite charge keeping them down for absorption purposes. Assuming this is all correct, of course.

Generally, I blame being a bit tired, and being very enthusiastic about the idea of these creatures creating magical anomalies in some manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

which, incidentially, we know one is in the Crystal Desert and another is in Ascalon - two of the five general areas Riders exist

Actually, we still don't know with absolute certainty if the one in Ascalon is still canon. The Storm Kin from the Crystal Desert could have easily floated over across the Blazeridge Mountains to Ascalon as they sensed the magical energies, in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy Frogger

This is, infact, very interesting... However when it comes to magic, the gods split it to where you could never control more than one... if the Riders came from the mists would they be bound by this law as well? If so they are of the Denial magic class, which could then help your theory that they are "denying" the magical energy to be found of anything else, which makes me wonder why they wouldn't want anyone else to use it...If however, they are not bound by the gods law, why do they chose Denial and not Preservation, Aggression, or Destruction (with the acception of bosses)?

I'm not completely sure, but, do note that the demons encountered in the Realm of Torment, which is in the Mists, are also born of the Mists. However, despite this, they are still restricted to using a Tyrian's limited form of magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Very interesting post Leon.
I was thinking a little about it and I have a question: Is it possible that Sybitha found the Riders in the areas east of Ascalon and the Crystal Desert? She found them, brought them to Desert and corrupted them. After that she released them on the Tyria. And if they lived in those areas, they could easily get to that extra large crystal in the Pockmark Flats.
And the magic-sapping theory seems right and after this post's explanation it would explain a lot.

I don't think so, personally. In the Crystal Desert..Maybe, but as I noted above, Telius' dialogue suggests that they were either summoned or created by Sybitha. As to Ascalon, it is suggested by Erudine that these creatures are completely new to the area, which seems to imply that they simply weren't present there before the Searing.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 25, 2009, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

This was stated somewhere, prior to Eye of the North's release. I recall that whenever it was stated the fellow who was talking mistakenly said Orr, which really had us excited until we were told it was a mistake. I'll dig up the thread in the Northern Tyria section, as I remember discussing it.

Please do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As a note, these are the stones I was rambling about awhile back to you, as I was looking around the Crystal Desert. Which can also be located in Vulture Drifts.

I have no memory of what rocks you mean. But I went in game to Skyward reach to the spot of the picture - if those are the rocks you mean, they don't look unnatural to me at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

It's possible. However, there are others of their kind that don't have Rider in the name, such as Breeze Keeper and Storm Kin.

Yes, I initially forgot about that. Perhaps it is caused by a different plain? Also, one thing that is consistent is that for the Tyrian Riders, their names deal with air (Wind, Breeze, and Storm). The FoW one is smoke - that deals more with fire than air (or, more precisely, the combination of the two). As healing is also a form of denial (denial of being harmed), one can view it as similar but more supportive and it could be that the type deals more with fire than air.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Possibly, but then how does one explain the stones in the Crystal Desert? Depending on the amount there were originally, could they have eroded in a thousand years by normal means? Or, it may be that the sand has just slowly buried many of them, but then, the sand appears to be made of the crystals. It's a bit of a conundrum in that area. But, yes, the reverse most likely would be the case. Although, it begs the question of why they still circle those stones, unless the stones themselves are simply that saturated with magic. It may be like a magnet when you put the same poles next to each, they push apart, and if they aren't circling those stones, they remove the opposite charge keeping them down for absorption purposes. Assuming this is all correct, of course.

I fail to see the issue with reversing the idea in terms of the Crystal Desert. As for those in the Tarnished Coast - could be that they are finishing off the magical properties before risking to move out in search of more "food."

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Actually, we still don't know with absolute certainty if the one in Ascalon is still canon. The Storm Kin from the Crystal Desert could have easily floated over across the Blazeridge Mountains to Ascalon as they sensed the magical energies, in my opinion.

This is true, especially as their names are also very similar, might mean that the Ascalonian and Crystal Desert Riders are closer related than the others.

Gmr Leon · Jul 25, 2009, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Please do.

It's in my edit on GWO. I couldn't find the exact source of the Cataclysm's magic sweeping over the Tarnished Coast, though, so it may have been a theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I have no memory of what rocks you mean. But I went in game to Skyward reach to the spot of the picture - if those are the rocks you mean, they don't look unnatural to me at all.

Unnatural when in comparison to what you'd expect to see in the Crystal Desert though, I'd say. Especially given the rock outcroppings, found in Vulture Drifts and, the largest example, the mesa found in Skyward Reach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Yes, I initially forgot about that. Perhaps it is caused by a different plain? Also, one thing that is consistent is that for the Tyrian Riders, their names deal with air (Wind, Breeze, and Storm). The FoW one is smoke - that deals more with fire than air (or, more precisely, the combination of the two). As healing is also a form of denial (denial of being harmed), one can view it as similar but more supportive and it could be that the type deals more with fire than air.

Possibly. Although the connection found with air is certainly true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I fail to see the issue with reversing the idea in terms of the Crystal Desert.

Yeah..That was a bit of a waking up error. I think I was thinking what I thought originally, about them making them float to erode in the Crystal Desert as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As for those in the Tarnished Coast - could be that they are finishing off the magical properties before risking to move out in search of more "food."

Might be, although the entire area is saturated in magic.

draxynnic · Jul 25, 2009, 12:14 PM // 12:14

It catches my attention it looks like you haven't been referencing the Ring of Fire population. Given that that's also a region with strong magic (the Mursaat and the Bloodstone they were protecting) I'm inclined to think this supports your theory further. After all, we know, from the Ring of Fire bonus, that the magic of the Mursaat can attract thaumovores, so it only makes sense that it may attract other varieties of thaumovore.

If we take the theory that the Riders are thaumovores, then it's possible that the different profession of the Smoke Walkers is a result of evolution. Consider that, at the original release of Prophecies, the Mesmer was the profession that everyone else (except Necromancers, who didn't need to) took as a secondary for energy management, and even now it's probably thematically the profession most suited to drawing power from the environment without drawing blood. If we follow the hypothesis that they evolved in the magic-soaked Mists, it's possible that, apart from exceptional examples, Riders need to be Mesmers to be able to absorb enough energy to sustain them. In the Fissure of Woe, however, they may not need this crutch, allowing them to instead develop a symbiotic relationship with apex predators in the Fissure - said predators provide them with protection while the Smoke Walkers channel the power they've been busy eating into healing.

Regarding the Lilac Eye... there are two explanations that come to my mind. The first is that the Riders grow them much like pearls - but this raises the question as to how legend knew that there was one in Gale Stormsend at all, let alone a particularly impressive one - unless they grow somewhere where it is visible from the outside. Maybe they grow in the eyes (hence the name...) and someone noticed the glint of the Lilac Eye in Stormsend's retina and lived to tell the tale.

Alternatively, a number of creatures in mythology contain gems, which are often responsible for their magical power (Eastern dragons especially are known for having pearls, but some legends of European wyverns claim they have a green gemstone in their head as well). This means that the Eye may still be a organically grown stone like a pearl, but instead of being a protection against an irritant, it serves a necessary role for the creature - possibly part of how it feeds on or manipulates magic. Under this theory, the legend of the Lilac Eye could simply have been based on Gale Stormsend being the most powerful Rider known to legend, and the deduction that the most powerful Rider would logically have the most impressive gem.

Finally, regarding the Augury Rock theory... I'm inclined to think it does predate that war, but to raise a possibility, could the chamber inside have been prepared after the war was over, just before the Exodus? It seems, in fact, that the gods allowed a means to Ascend in each continent, even if it turned out that the means in Elona was a lot closer and easier than Turai thought... it's possible, though, that the pools of the Sanctuary were originally part of another Ascension test which was forgotten and decayed over time (or maybe, somehow, we'd already unknowingly been granted the go-ahead in some manner). It is worth noting, thinking along these lines, that Prince Chang Hai's ascension also came after the Exodus, which does raise the possibility that the various means of Ascension was something the gods left behind before leaving.

Gmr Leon · Jul 27, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

It catches my attention it looks like you haven't been referencing the Ring of Fire population. Given that that's also a region with strong magic (the Mursaat and the Bloodstone they were protecting) I'm inclined to think this supports your theory further. After all, we know, from the Ring of Fire bonus, that the magic of the Mursaat can attract thaumovores, so it only makes sense that it may attract other varieties of thaumovore.

I have one question. What's a thaumovore? I tried looking it up, and found nothing. As to why I didn't note it, I excluded quite a bit of the Riders, due to being tired each time I went out to get shots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

If we take the theory that the Riders are thaumovores, then it's possible that the different profession of the Smoke Walkers is a result of evolution. Consider that, at the original release of Prophecies, the Mesmer was the profession that everyone else (except Necromancers, who didn't need to) took as a secondary for energy management, and even now it's probably thematically the profession most suited to drawing power from the environment without drawing blood. If we follow the hypothesis that they evolved in the magic-soaked Mists, it's possible that, apart from exceptional examples, Riders need to be Mesmers to be able to absorb enough energy to sustain them. In the Fissure of Woe, however, they may not need this crutch, allowing them to instead develop a symbiotic relationship with apex predators in the Fissure - said predators provide them with protection while the Smoke Walkers channel the power they've been busy eating into healing.

Possible, certainly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Regarding the Lilac Eye... there are two explanations that come to my mind. The first is that the Riders grow them much like pearls - but this raises the question as to how legend knew that there was one in Gale Stormsend at all, let alone a particularly impressive one - unless they grow somewhere where it is visible from the outside. Maybe they grow in the eyes (hence the name...) and someone noticed the glint of the Lilac Eye in Stormsend's retina and lived to tell the tale.

Alternatively, a number of creatures in mythology contain gems, which are often responsible for their magical power (Eastern dragons especially are known for having pearls, but some legends of European wyverns claim they have a green gemstone in their head as well). This means that the Eye may still be a organically grown stone like a pearl, but instead of being a protection against an irritant, it serves a necessary role for the creature - possibly part of how it feeds on or manipulates magic. Under this theory, the legend of the Lilac Eye could simply have been based on Gale Stormsend being the most powerful Rider known to legend, and the deduction that the most powerful Rider would logically have the most impressive gem.

I had fairly similar ideas, except that if there happened to be an excess of magic, perhaps it used it to alter it's body to create gems, like the Lilac Eye. After all, we know from the Asura that crystals are capable of storing energy, and if you live off of energy, it would only make sense to evolve some method of storing it to prolong your life. Thus, perhaps, the reason for Gale Stormsend's Lilac Eye. Given enough time, perhaps all of the Riders are capable of forming these gems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Finally, regarding the Augury Rock theory... I'm inclined to think it does predate that war, but to raise a possibility, could the chamber inside have been prepared after the war was over, just before the Exodus? It seems, in fact, that the gods allowed a means to Ascend in each continent, even if it turned out that the means in Elona was a lot closer and easier than Turai thought... it's possible, though, that the pools of the Sanctuary were originally part of another Ascension test which was forgotten and decayed over time (or maybe, somehow, we'd already unknowingly been granted the go-ahead in some manner). It is worth noting, thinking along these lines, that Prince Chang Hai's ascension also came after the Exodus, which does raise the possibility that the various means of Ascension was something the gods left behind before leaving.

I think that alternate forms of Ascension weren't left behind, personally. Once we come to the point of Nightfall, I suspect that they realized the fault with doing this over and over, and thus didn't add as much of an emphasis. Ascension and whatever comes of it, is exclusive to the Crystal Desert. Just as is the case with Weh No Su and Cantha. Nightfall does not have such a form. The reason for the addition is simply of finding it to be necessary..As to why, I'm not exactly sure.

As I said in my first response to Konig, though, I always liked to think of Augury Rock as having been one of the meteorites cast down by Abaddon, and, as an afterthought, thinking it contained a piece of "heaven" where the Gods would later reside. Assuming it wasn't from Arah itself, unless Arah is merely a ploy, a summer home of sorts for the Gods to stay in while visiting.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 27, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I had fairly similar ideas, except that if there happened to be an excess of magic, perhaps it used it to alter it's body to create gems, like the Lilac Eye. After all, we know from the Asura that crystals are capable of storing energy, and if you live off of energy, it would only make sense to evolve some method of storing it to prolong your life. Thus, perhaps, the reason for Gale Stormsend's Lilac Eye. Given enough time, perhaps all of the Riders are capable of forming these gems.

In summary and/or layman terms: Think of a camel's hump and how they store water. Lilac Eyes would do the same kind of thing for Riders, except it would hold magic instead of water.

And I would have to agree on the point of the Ascension. Chang's "Ascension" mentioning was in the early stages of development for Factions, so it is likely that Ascension was changed to Weh No Su in Cantha and thus while similar is also different.

draxynnic · Jul 28, 2009, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I have one question. What's a thaumovore? I tried looking it up, and found nothing.

I think it originally came from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, but it basically means "magic-eater".

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I had fairly similar ideas, except that if there happened to be an excess of magic, perhaps it used it to alter it's body to create gems, like the Lilac Eye. After all, we know from the Asura that crystals are capable of storing energy, and if you live off of energy, it would only make sense to evolve some method of storing it to prolong your life. Thus, perhaps, the reason for Gale Stormsend's Lilac Eye. Given enough time, perhaps all of the Riders are capable of forming these gems.

So it's essentially their equivalent of stored fat? As good a hypothesis as any.

Shasgaliel · Jul 30, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

In this case their absence on Elona is surprising. They are even in Maguuma and Ascalon and roam upon almost every area in Crystal desert but there is not a single one in desolation. The Abaddon magic is very strong there. So it might be that what atracts them are crystals or maybe there are different kinds of magic? They could just move a bit south from Crystal and get into desolation but they did not why?

Konig Des Todes · Jul 30, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

That is actually a very good point. And between the Crystal Desert and Mouth of Torment, there is very little sulfur which may or may not be deadly to them. Not even the sulfur in the Crystal Outlook is deadly (humorously enough, only a couple patches here and there are lethal, the sand as a whole there is not, despite being a sulfuric color).

So why are there none in at least the Desolation? The only thought I come across would be the same reason why there are no Riders near "Drakkar" or "Grothmar" - they avoid magic which corrupts.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 30, 2009, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

they avoid magic which corrupts.

What if Sybitha corrupted them? We don't know for sure but it's stated that she released them upon Tyria. Before that, there was no mention about Riders anywhere. And there's no other explanation for being so aggressive. I mean, we, as adventurers, wouldn't hurt them if they would just harvest and store unused magic*. For being so aggressive there's no theory other than they are corrupt. Although, it's possible that they can't harvest and store corrupt magic, because it would make them ill and kill them eventually.

*as Leon stated in one of his posts (I'm quite lazy and tired to search the whole thread :P) Magic is like radiation, in large dosis it can corrupt and kill. It's just a theory, but then the riders are really useful.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 30, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

What if Sybitha corrupted them?

For being so aggressive there's no theory other than they are corrupt.

There is one: Naturally (or created to be) aggressive. Similar to how animals get aggressive when they eat, Riders may be the same. Since we only go near them in areas where there is magical concentration, they may believe we're trying to steal their food (if they are unintelligent, then they very well may be prone to think this) and would act in defense to those around them, for the simple hope of keeping their own food.

Gmr Leon · Jul 30, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

In this case their absence on Elona is surprising. They are even in Maguuma and Ascalon and roam upon almost every area in Crystal desert but there is not a single one in desolation.

Actually, the Riders are very rare in the Crystal Desert. They are only present in large quantities in the Salt Flats, elsewhere, in Skyward Reach and Prophet's Path, they are in extremely small quantities. So it seems entirely possible that the magic in the Crystal Desert has already been mostly absorbed by them except for in the Salt Flats and the small areas of Prophet's Path and Skyward Reach, and they would end up dying in the heat. Assuming they absorb the magic as a form of sustenance, we have no idea what aspects of its anatomy it maintains. It may just be like a casual snack, or it may be absolutely necessary for survival. If they run out of it, or they go without it too long, perhaps they die?

We're still not completely sure how far the gap is between the Crystal Desert and the Desolation. It might take quite some time to get to there, and then, as pointed out above, the magic might just be rotten. Corrupted by Abaddon in some way that would harm them.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 30, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

So it seems entirely possible that the magic in the Crystal Desert has already been mostly absorbed by them except for in the Salt Flats and the small areas of Prophet's Path and Skyward Reach, and they would end up dying in the heat.

But if they create those 'gems' like the Lilac Eye from stored energy, then all the Riders in the Crystal Desert would drop such items beacuse of the insane amount of energy left there by the catastrophe that devastated the Crystal Sea in the War of the Gods and by Abaddon's searing. They only drop Shriveled Eyes, which doesn't seem too beuatiful like the Lilac Eye, and they aren't too powerful either. If your theory is right Leon, then they would be much more stronger beacuse of the absorbed energy than now.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 30, 2009, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

But if they create those 'gems' like the Lilac Eye from stored energy, then all the Riders in the Crystal Desert would drop such items beacuse of the insane amount of energy left there by the catastrophe that devastated the Crystal Sea in the War of the Gods and by Abaddon's searing. They only drop Shriveled Eyes, which doesn't seem too beuatiful like the Lilac Eye, and they aren't too powerful either. If your theory is right Leon, then they would be much more stronger beacuse of the absorbed energy than now.

Actually, it would be the opposite of that. Because there are so few now, that would mean, if the theory is correct, that the magic is all gone and the last few are living on the last bits left. Meaning that for some time, they've probably rationed off the remaining magic, and as such whatever reserves they had in their "eyes" would also be getting tapped as time goes on. I would say the "smarter" Riders moved on early (most likely due to lack of magic to take in for the whole population), while those not willing to part just yet (due to there still being magic) would be forced, due to the amount of numbers not decreasing, to eventually tap into their reserves while rationing the magic.

Add in the heat, and you get Shriveled Eyes.

Thalador Doomspeaker · Jul 30, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Okay, it seems logical and rational.
There's one more question: where are those 'smarter' Riders you are mentioning?
I think Gale Stormsend is one of them, but where are the other powerful Riders, who possess such items containing a strong concentration of magical energy?

Gmr Leon · Jul 30, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

We're still not sure how long ago they were unleashed. It could have been centuries after the initial devastation brought on from Abaddon, and many mages have come to the Crystal Desert afterward, most likely utilizing the magic there. We have Lord Kree, Sybitha, and, if it's to be taken as valid, the creator of the Ancient Weapon that would appear to have devastated one of the early cities of a civilization in the Arid Sea. The Ancient Weapon appearing to be one of the more powerful remnants of what was most likely experimentation with unstable magic. Likewise, it would seem, may have been the case for Sybitha, if the results of her unleashing the Riders was the destruction of the nearby civilization in the Salt Flats. With Lord Kree, well, it probably took quite a bit of magic to bend the Minotaurs to his will, as would be indicated by the description in the Manuscripts, and whatever other creatures composed his army.

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Originally Posted by Eye of the North Manuscripts, Minotaurs.

An old folk legend states the only reason dolyaks were domesticated instead of minotaurs is because minotaurs would rather be beaten to death than obey a command. Dolyaks, simply put, were less stubborn. Minotaurs are one of the oldest species in Tyria and are very much prized by the Norn for their warm, furry coats. They were once extremely populous throughout the Shiverpeaks but now reside solely in the northern regions, where they have sheltered valleys and caves to make their homes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

Okay, it seems logical and rational.
There's one more question: where are those 'smarter' Riders you are mentioning?
I think Gale Stormsend is one of them, but where are the other powerful Riders, who possess such items containing a strong concentration of magical energy?

Probably where there's a large excess of magic. And we're not calling them smarter, it just appears to be a natural feature that is only expressed in the right environments. Kind of like you're not going to find a dog with thick fur in a desert, and dog with thin fur in a tundra.